Linux XGL/Compiz Graphics to Apple Aqua & Vista Aero: EAT ME!

Of course the Linux/XGL blows the others away…

Visually, as in just watching it Linux XGL is the coolest, however having used all three interfaces, Apple’s is the easiest to use and be productive. XGL needs a control panel, so you cna turn off a few of the bits of “candy” to make it really usable. Then I’d probably vote for it. But in useablility and an interface thats cool, but not too cool, Apple wins hands down.

Hmmm. Are you sure you’ve actually played with XGL/Compiz kaseiffert? If you have, you would know that all the extra eyecandy (i.e. water effects, 3-D workspace cube backdrop, etc.) are plugins, which are not there by default. The beauty is that you can tweak/extend XGL/Compiz effects to heart’s desire — not the other way around. But, yeah… I would love to see a config screen for XGL/Compiz that would make adding plugin effects as easy as clicking a toggle switch :) Maybe there is one I don’t know about?

FYI, turning bundled effects on and off is easy as adding or removing Compiz rendering attributes:

compiz –replace gconf decoration wobbly fade minimize cube rotate zoom scale move resize place switcher

Novell XGL Demo (Default Setup)

The Linux GUI winds hands down…..It’d be cool for a whole 30 seconds for me; then reality would set in and I’d be looking for my Windows install disk again.

Right now I am contemplating a jump to OSX as Windows is just too unstable for me. I am a Linux newbie and have very little to no time to learn Linux. I’l admit that unless something is as easy as point and click I don’t want any part of it.

Don’t mean to rant just saying that Linux wins hands down in the development circle for sure but everyda useability if where it lags.

Krysoy

Kryspy said: I am a Linux newbie and have very little to no time to learn Linux. I’l admit that unless something is as easy as point and click I don’t want any part of it.

Don’t mean to rant just saying that Linux wins hands down in the development circle for sure but everyda useability if where it lags.

See… to me this type of thinking is interesing. XGL/Compiz is basically a graphical extension to any windowing environment on Linux. When you speak about useability and ease of use, GNOME and KDE are right up there with Windows XP and OS X. In fact, if you never want to see or use the command line, you don’t have to in either of these environments. It should be noted that most Linux users look at using the command line terminal as a power-user’s tool, which sits there ideally until your ready.

Tip: Great little reference book on bash commands – Linux Phrasebook

My suggestion to anyone who is interested in taking Linux for a spin without having to install it on there PC is to download and burn a LiveCD of one or few of the most popular distributions — i.e. Ubuntu, Knoppix, Mepis (see DistroWatch for more).

XGL/Compiz is very impressive and is certainly something that the “Powers That Be” in Cupertino and Redmond should pay attention to.

That said, Linux is still missing some key apps before it can become “mainstream” enough to compete with the likes of MS or Apple. For one, they have several software holes – video and audio editing immediately come to mind – that they need to patch. Because audio and video editing are some of the more difficult programs to develop, it may be some time before an iMovie or Garageband equivalent comes along. Though the gaming scene has certainly gotten better on Linux, it doesn’t compare to the experience MS has planned with Vista. Love it or hate it, the Live service from MS represents incredible potential for gamers.

Secondly – and this is a key point – Linux users need to drop the superiority complex that has plagued Mac-enthusiasts for so long. Calling people who don’t use command line stupid, naive or morons is not really a way to encourage wide-spread adoption of your OS of choice. Command-line is definitely for power users (and I use it myself at work), but the sheer arrogance of several in the Linux community has turned me off on more occasions than I can count.

So, for now, I’ll wait for Apple to steal the ideas in XGL/Compiz and integrate them into Mac OS X (and then claim it’s their innovation). Then, I’ll wait for MS to steal the ideas from Apple and integrate them into Windows XVistaP2010 (which will release in 2015).

Let’s try to keep the discussion focused on graphic desktop environments.

However, to address the points you made about audio and video editing tools. Linux has Audacity just like Windows and Macs do, and on the video end there’s Kino DV and soon DIVA (closest thing to iMovie yet – demo videos available). Remember, applications on Linux are created and developed by the community, not some well-funded, heavyweight corporation. Nonetheless, the addition of Adobe products in particular would be very much welcomed by multimedia professionals.

Didn’t mean to side-track the discussion – I was really trying to point out that while the XGL/Compiz demonstration is incredible, it’s only one small part of the OS (granted, the most eye-catching part).

And while I can appreciate the incredible development work that went into Audacity and DIVA, you hit on a very valid point. Apple’s products for video and audio are superior because they CAN throw lots of money at them.

Alexander Grundner said: Hmmm. Are you sure you’ve actually played with XGL/Compiz kaseiffert? If you have, you would know that all the extra eyecandy (i.e. water effects, 3-D workspace cube backdrop, etc.) are plugins, which are not there by default. The beauty is that you can tweak/extend XGL/Compiz effects to heart’s desire — not the other way around. But, yeah… I would love to see a config screen for XGL/Compiz that would make adding plugin effects as easy as clicking a toggle switch :) Maybe there is one I don’t know about?

FYI, turning bundled effects on and off is easy as adding or removing Compiz rendering attributes:

Yes actually I am using XGL on an ubuntu dapper install, right now, so I am quite sure I have tried it out. If there is a config screen I am not awair of it either. I figured there was a cli way to do it but hadn’t gotten around to looking for that config yet…. too busy writing comments here and my own blog (shameless plug). ;)

Alexander Grundner said: See… to me this type of thinking is interesing. XGL/Compiz is basically a graphical extension to any windowing environment on Linux. When you speak about useability and ease of use, GNOME and KDE are right up there with Windows XP and OS X. In fact, if you never want to see or use the command line, you don’t have to in either of these environments. It should be noted that most Linux users look at using the command line terminal as a power-user’s tool, which sits there ideally until your ready.

My suggestion to anyone who is interested in taking Linux for a spin without having to install it on there PC is to download and burn a LiveCD of one or few of the most popular distributions — i.e. Ubuntu, Knoppix, Mepis (see DistroWatch for more).

Sorry Alex, I think this is still a bit overstated. In the last 5 years linux distros have come a long way towards being 100% point and click GUIs like OS X and Windows, but its still only 95%ish. Even a non power user will eventually run up against something that requires the Linux CLI, or a text file edit style config instead of a nice GUI check box config. Not that that is bad, or nessesarily hard, but its simple things liek that that keep me from deploying linux in my business or even my family.

That said Linux is definatly “almost there” and if you up for a bit of a challange then sure, give a mature distro like Ubuntu a look, but don’t expect it to be “100%” as easy to use as OS X or Windows, just yet.

kaseiffert said: Sorry Alex, I think this is still a bit overstated. In the last 5 years linux distros have come a long way towards being 100% point and click GUIs like OS X and Windows, but its still only 95%ish. Even a non power user will eventually run up against something that requires the Linux CLI, or a text file edit style config instead of a nice GUI check box config. Not that that is bad, or nessesarily hard, but its simple things liek that that keep me from deploying linux in my business or even my family.

That said Linux is definatly “almost there” and if you up for a bit of a challange then sure, give a mature distro like Ubuntu a look, but don’t expect it to be “100%” as easy to use as OS X or Windows, just yet.

Here’s my point of view on the subject (though, again, it’s not entirely graphics related). First, let me start off stating that I’ve been mulling over this topic in my head for the past couple weeks. The way I see it is when OEMs start selling PCs with Linux distributions pre-installed — like the recent Lenovo Thinkpad/SUSE announcement — general users will no longer have to be bothered by any type of system setting tweaks or hardware incompatibilities because the OS has already been tested and configured to work by the builder. So in essence, your new Linux Desktop/Laptop will be 100% operational from day one just like any other PC purchased from Apple or Dell.

Side note: XGL/Compiz in SUSE 10 is a clickable option to enable. They’re one of the few distros who are ahead of the pack in this area. I’m sure Ubuntu Edgy Eft will have something similar when it launches by year end.

Sorry guys….. I really want to get this working…. it looks awesome…

Any links to where I can get the XGL and Compiz environments would be great.

I’m thinking of trying it with Ubuntu and Gnome, this should work right???

Here’s the link I used to get XGL/Compiz working in Ubuntu Dapper (req. NVIDIA card):
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=131267

Tip: If you’re new to Linux, wait until Ubuntu Edgy Eft comes out or try XGL/Compiz today on SUSE. The above link instructions are suitable for intermediate to advanced users.

My Ubuntu XGL/Compiz Demo

Now, although I do love the way XGL/Compiz has been evolving, I think the poll is kinda fixed. You can’t ask people to compare the interface from a 4:28 min video showing ALL the goodies to one that’s 0:48 and another one that’s 1:25. Given the Aero one pretty much has all it can do, yet for the OSX one you just showed a video of spaces. What you should be comparing it too is to a video with spaces AND exposee.

Now, that said, I’ll give Linux another chance because this really looks neat.

Kypt said: Now, although I do love the way XGL/Compiz has been evolving, I think the poll is kinda fixed. You can’t ask people to compare the interface from a 4:28 min video showing ALL the goodies to one that’s 0:48 and another one that’s 1:25. Given the Aero one pretty much has all it can do, you just showed a video of spaces. What you should be comparing it too is to a video with spaces AND exposee.

Now, that said, I’ll give Linux another chance because this really looks neat.

I agree with that, the Apple spaces movie is just one aspect of the GUI, not really a fair compairson.

I voted for apple, because its the coolest that doesn’t get in the way. The XGL/Compiz stuff looks great but its all eye candy, it doesn’t add much functionality that wasn’t already on the gnome desktop. In fact the expose features are all I can see that XGL adds that is new & useful. Hence my vote for Apple.

Kypt said: You can’t ask people to compare the interface from a 4:28 min video showing ALL the goodies to one that’s 0:48 and another one that’s 1:25. Given the Aero one pretty much has all it can do, yet for the OSX one you just showed a video of spaces. What you should be comparing it too is to a video with spaces AND exposee.

You’re right to an extent. There isn’t any decent YouTube videos featuring Exposé (search). I also assumed most people were already familiar with the current OS X interface. However, I did find a Mac OS X Exposé Video Demo on Apple’s site that people may find of interest (I added the link under the current Spaces video).

Hmm if you’re voting on which had the prettiest effects or the most annoying soundtrack then XGL wins hands down. However, as anyone who’s ever minimised a window or used fast user switching/exposé on OS X knows, Apple’s Aqua GL-based GUI is capable of any of the effects shown in that demo. My vote goes to Apple for actually implementing useful features, not to say that I would turn down the ability to watch movies on the corner of a 3D cube… but how is that of any benefit to me???

The point of the original XGL/Compiz video is to show off what’s currently possible effect-wise with the technology and its use of workspaces. If you want to see the benefits of XGL/Compiz in the real-world, see the Novell XGL Demo I posted earlier (link).

I see no point in presenting sweet flippy graphics if you have to go through trial by fire to get there.
Linux has a real usablity problem, and it’s not the fault of kde/gnome, it’s because of bash.
Bash should be an option, not a requirment!

When a user never has to even touch cli, then linux will be a contender.

Granted, the XGL demo is slicker, but there are two factors that need to be considered.

First – which is of these technologies is for customers with the least amount of fuss? That would be Aqua and Aero. I’ve been trying to Xgl/Compiz running on my Athlon for two weeks now and it won’t work. I’m using both SLED 10 and Ubuntu 6.06. Neither of them can get it running, and I’ve followed all the directions to the letter (there is some bug between the kernel and the gpu drivers, apparently that only shows itself on Athlon systems. Whatever.)

With Aqua and Aero, these technologies are working and setup right out of the box. No twiddling with xorg.conf files or extended installation steps. Install the OS, boom – you’re done.

Once Xgl gets to this level of implementation, I will be singing it’s praises. Until then, for me at least, it’s a useful as a Unicorn.

Second, is how this eye candy extends the usefulness of the UI. With XGL, they get the tab-switcher and Expose correct, but the wobbly window does absolutely nothing for me.

serpicolugnut said: With Aqua and Aero, these technologies are working and setup right out of the box. No twiddling with xorg.conf files or extended installation steps. Install the OS, boom – you’re done.

Once Xgl gets to this level of implementation, I will be singing it’s praises. Until then, for me at least, it’s a useful as a Unicorn.

Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but that argument/concern will be void once OEMs start selling PCs pre-installed with various Linux distributions — they’re handling all the testing and making sure all the functions work on their hardware. What’s more, it’s a little unfair to pooh, pooh the technology because it doesn’t want to play nice with your current hardware configuration. Imagine trying to install Vista on hardware that doesn’t readily support it (example), or OS X on a non-Apple designed PC (virtually impossible).

Well, first of all, show me an official list of supported hardware. I’ve tried and tried, but I can’t find one. And even if there is one, I’m pretty sure it hasn’t been fully tested. My CPU, Motherboard and GPU are all within compliance for Xgl (or so I have been told on both the Novell and Ubuntu forums), but the combination of the three apparently doesn’t work. Who knew.

Second, I don’t know of anyone who buys their PC bundled with Linux. Not saying it won’t start happening, but most Linux people I know like to roll their own hardware along with rolling their own software.

Third… Won’t the hardware OEMs have an issue including proprietary video drivers alongside GPL’d Linux distributions, or does that only apply to the OS distributors?

Alexander Grundner said: Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but that argument/concern will be void once OEMs start setting PCs pre-installed with various Linux distributions — they’re handling all the testing and making sure all the functions work on their hardware. What’s more, it’s a little unfair to pooh, pooh the technology because it doesn’t want to play nice with your current hardware configuration. Imagine trying to install Vista on hardware that doesn’t readily support it, or OS X on a non-Apple designed PC.

Oh, and even OS X on a non-Apple designed PC, while difficult, has still proven easier for me than getting Xgl running on my two boxes.
:-)

Alexander Grundner said: Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but that argument/concern will be void once OEMs start selling PCs pre-installed with various Linux distributions — they’re handling all the testing and making sure all the functions work on their hardware. What’s more, it’s a little unfair to pooh, pooh the technology because it doesn’t want to play nice with your current hardware configuration. Imagine trying to install Vista on hardware that doesn’t readily support it (example), or OS X on a non-Apple designed PC (virtually impossible).

SUSE has out of box support for XGL
Ubuntu has very comprehensive wiki on how to set up XGL and Compiz
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/Xgl
Finally, there IS a tool for configuring Compiz and it’s called gset-compiz
screenshot: http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/…utekranuzz9.jpg

serpicolugnut said: Well, first of all, show me an official list of supported hardware. I’ve tried and tried, but I can’t find one. And even if there is one, I’m pretty sure it hasn’t been fully tested. My CPU, Motherboard and GPU are all within compliance for Xgl (or so I have been told on both the Novell and Ubuntu forums), but the combination of the three apparently doesn’t work. Who knew.

Second, I don’t know of anyone who buys their PC bundled with Linux. Not saying it won’t start happening, but most Linux people I know like to roll their own hardware along with rolling their own software.

Third… Won’t the hardware OEMs have an issue including proprietary video drivers alongside GPL’d Linux distributions, or does that only apply to the OS distributors?

To question #1: Best piece of advice if you’re having trouble with your hardware: Contact your local Linux User Group. Free technical support!

To question #2: Checkout this post for vendors.

To question #3: OEMs + Proprietary Drivers = No problem. Both ATI & NVIDIA have their graphics card drivers available for download AND most repositories (in the non-free section) have the necessary kernel module pre-built for installation.

Hope this helps :)

JanWinnicki said: Finally, there IS a tool for configuring Compiz and it’s called gset-compiz
screenshot: http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/…utekranuzz9.jpg

HELL YEAH! That’s awesome! I’m guessing gset-compiz is being developed at:
https://launchpad.net/products/gset

Ubuntu thread with more details:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=148351

just use this repo (add it to your synaptic):

deb http://xgl.compiz.info/ dapper main

then update package database, find gset-compiz, install.
done

and remember: Ubuntu Wiki! ;>

The question was, “What is the best desktop graphics enviroment?” We all agree XGL/Compiz is very cool, but It seems I am not alone in saying just because it is possable, doesn’t make it useful, or in this case, even best. Apple’s aqua is still “best” of what is possable and what is useable.

As for what Whiteguysamurai says… its not exactly a trial by fire, following the instructions in the wiki is pretty ideiot proof… not meant as a insult, just as a statement that as I agree linux isn’t quite ready yet, “trial by fire” is a bit of an extreme as well.

JanWinnicki said: just use this repo (add it to your synaptic):

Code:

deb http://xgl.compiz.info/ dapper main

then update package database, find gset-compiz, install.
done

and remember: Ubuntu Wiki! ;>

SWEET!!! thanks guys, good find.

Its called gset-compiz and can be found in the same repositories that the XGL/compiz files are found. Here you can modify virtually every aspect of the behavior of XGL/compiz, including activating/deactivating all of the plugins, changing the behavior of the plugins and a lot more.

Once its installed, you do have to type gset-compiz into a terminal, but once you do its all graphical and easy to use!

David Walker said: 
That said, Linux is still missing some key apps before it can become “mainstream” enough to compete with the likes of MS or Apple. For one, they have several software holes – video and audio editing immediately come to mind – that they need to patch. Because audio and video editing are some of the more difficult programs to develop, it may be some time before an iMovie or Garageband equivalent comes along.

I think these points are valid in a graphics discussion since many of the people who are interested in the XGL/Compiz effects are the people who do this kind of work.

As for software availability, depending on your level of sophistication with video editing, Cinelera and Cinepaint are studio quality tools. Cinepaint was used in the production of “The Last Samurai” to paint in stuff like flying arrows and spears. I think what is missing here is the ability for average-joe to edit his home videos. Other than that, many of the tools used by Pixar and Dreamworks are being donated back to open source.

As for the graphics themselves, I really like the mac for being able to move desktops and applications around from one desktop to another in the view that shows all the desktops.

One other point that is getting lost here. Linux is providing these features. It’s the GUI desktop that is doing it. Since the GUI is inseparable from the OS in Windows and for many years in Apple products, people think GUI interface = OS.

As for usability, I would contend that in general, Linux desktops(Gnome, KDE, and XFCE) are far more usable and efficient than the Windows desktop(I have never been a big Mac user, so I would differ to those who have more experience there, but I am not sure I could justify it to myself to spend the extra money on the mac when I am very comfortable using the Linux desktops.) Between the utimate customizability, speed, stability, and features that just make sense. The only reason for someone to be searching for the Windows install disks would be because they want the interface they are used to. If you install linux for one month, customize the desktop the way you like it, and begin working on it, I’m confident that you’ll come to the same conclusion that EVERYONE else I have installed it for has had… they all like Linux desktop(Gnome) better. These users range from completely new computer users to the general power user, to software engineers.

If you’re just getting into linux, install Ubuntu. Debian based systems are easy to manage because apt-get does all the work for you and it will install and configure XGL/Compiz.

Some Distros are delivering Xgl Live CD’s:

1. DreamLinux (Brazilian Distro): Uses Xfce4 window manager in a real nice simple Apple like interface (still experimental beta). Plus the choice of the eLive Engage Dock or normal Xfce Panel/dock all on a Live CD.
2. Kororra (Gentoo Live Xgl Distro) A KDE or Gnome flavored distro that boots ATI or Nvidia Xgl enabled on a Live CD!

Although Ubuntu is a nice Distro “kaseiffert”, often times the best exposure to the abilities of Compiz/Xgl come within Novell’s own SuSE 10.1. Remember we are talking a baby learning to walk Beta piece of software, not even out of diapers! A whole new concept David Reveman brought to life with little help until it had been unveiled by Novell last November (prior to his pulling it from public dev due to lack of interest and his own desire to see it flourish . No doubt this is Genius coding at work.

New head of Novell Compiz Development, Quinn Storm has a very nice looking control panel and themer she developed before becoming a part of the Novell team (it’s now being re-incorporated into Compiz). A very talented coder who is just completing a complete rewrite of Compiz with Reveman. It’s a winner in the works, unfolding some incredible plugins yet to be shown and some never before imagined. Only a small segment of users have the complete setup working as yet. But the beauty of Open Source is that everyone is a potential developer and development is in complete public view with no room for the cheats and hanky panky that goes on behind the scenes of closed development processes as in Apple and MS (over 5yrs Longhorn), and indeed Reveman has published the code to make the impossible, possible with turning the old mule Linux workhorse into a Racehorse! Development is deployed at a very rapid rate in Open Source these days just as we are witnessing with Xgl in a very short time.

The Control Panel and Themer are very pretty indeed, but better yet function like few legacy linux graphical control aps are capable of. All click and slide enable/disable make it all simple, painless, and quick, much like the gnome desktop changer itself! No Command Line!

Reason! Both Reveman and Storm realize that old school Linux mentality has to die in order to step fully into the 21st Century. Xgl represents a giant leap from stubborn ole caveman linux to Enterprise stuff, minus the laborious quagmire that has come to represent the Linux dark age mentality of the purist Linux-ite ego’d utilitarians. It’s a hard image and habit to break and most old veteran super ego’d users must be dragged into the future if there is to be one for Linux.

Few desktop users have the time to tinker and tune what they expect should work out of the box. The future is now and Xgl is changing the way we see it in an addictive almost wondrous way, ahead of the competition. Things which neither Vista nor OS-X are as yet capable of (unless they incorporate OpenGL itself). For Vista with what they think is superior in a DirectX 10 enabled desktop (still struggling and no OpenGL glide for rendering, plus extremely resource heavy and incapable of dealing with the lightning fast vectored zooming Xgl demonstrates). Even OS-X comparison reveals that, although they, like Vista have a somewhat 3-D desktop, zoom is still pixelated and slow by comparison because they lack full hardware acceleration. They pale by comparison with Xgl/Compiz potential as a full replacement for X-Windows itself, which is the Ultimate Goal of the Novell development team. Xgl will be it’s X-window server in the end and it will level the playing field of all graphics cards and chips with no need for any proprietary drivers.

Kroneage’s video is an awesome Linux pimp tool, but he himself is working on a video that will lay low any claims by MS Vista or even OS-X of Superiority in a side by side OS comparison of it’s productivity increasing features. Not just the glitz! This little quick production is sweet and his extremely quick mouse and keyboard work have been shown off, but unfortunitely most people miss what’s being accomplished here. So now we need to see the proof of concept at work and I believe “kroneage” will produce one. His next video will be narrated side by side, honest comparison in real time, using apps within each OS to perform similiar tasks! We will see first hand the ease of use in action.

Lastly on a provocative note let me leave you with a thought on the spread of Xglian Age of computers and a particular “Cell” based game console due out in November! OpenGL and a linux kernel are at it’s hypervisor core. But Linux is also do to be pre-installed on it’s harddrive and possibly with Xgl pre-configured all running on HDTV’s from living room sofas around the world. Market analyst predict that in the neighborhood of 70+ million units of this PS3 will be sold by end 2008! Displacing sum comparable sales of Mac OS-X and Windows Vista! The entire family will have their chance to spin the cube, play a movie, surf the net, write a letter, edit art, instant message, play a song and let’s not forget play excellent games on a Linux run machine! :cool:

bob_p said: Its called gset-compiz and can be found in the same repositories that the XGL/compiz files are found. Here you can modify virtually every aspect of the behavior of XGL/compiz, including activating/deactivating all of the plugins, changing the behavior of the plugins and a lot more.

Once its installed, you do have to type gset-compiz into a terminal, but once you do its all graphical and easy to use!

Yes Bob you have it right! Watch the video, you may just be able to make out the “Red Cube” in kroneage’s toolbar. Once placed into the toolbar, click and open either the themer, gset configuration, preferences, or even the Kiba Dock (humorous OS-X like dock). But the ultimate plan is to use the tool you’re talking about for simple quick command lineless control of the Xgl Desktop! If you need the instructions to place it, let me know!

Monark… your rant is too big to quote, but since you mentioned me by name I felt the need to respond. Everything you write is great, and I like and support XGL, but when push comes to shove and where XGL is now, and where Aqua is now, I still have to say Aqua is the superior interface. Thats as of today. Now, for tomorrow, I have big hopes, I like where XGL is going and I expect features of it to appear in future Apple desktops, becasue it has the potential to be just that cool.

Personally I am migrating all my windows boxes to Linux, and XGL/Compiz. I am a fan but I had to answer the question truthfully, and in my opinion, Aqua has the more polished useful interface. I don’t expect it to stay that way, but its the way it is today.

Hey kaseiffert! Yeh to an extent that Aqua is ready out of the box, you’re right. But I’ve always strived to drip off the bleeding edge on my computers and if there has been anything new or alternative, I’ll try it!

I see Macs as for regimented, just out of army or prison people, where you can’t tell one from the other. Crew Cuts,Track Homes, The Gap, perfect Cookie Cutter formed and shaped computers for cookie cutter people wearing the perfect smile and uniforms. Seen one seen them all versions! The perfect Steven Jobs shirt and pants (same color same style for last thirty yrs)! Always the one color fits all style without the possibility to make it different from any other Apple computer. It is a Utilitarian OS that keeps you locked out of even seeing the inner workings. And for Apple, a new version is just a way to make you pay for what’s in a “Service Pack” on Windows every single year. More like a Subscription Software Service headed for “Rented Software” like their iTunes songs and Vista’s new 31 Flavors Pay More Editions.

They’re running out of cat names? What next? OS-X Butterfly Edition? I myself am flat out bored to tears on OS-X, so rigid, cut and dry one ap, one choice, for one people marching in single filed S. Jobs Utilitarian Computerized Mentalities! “Think Different”? Bah humbug! Resembles that 1984 Commercial they’re so famous for and like living in all white insane asylum!!!

Give me a fun easy install such as Mepis, PCLinuxOS, SuSE, and many of the Linux distros anytime. Something I can fully customize to look like my real desktop and use like my real desktop, that’s fun and fully controllable with mouse and keyboard. A few words I forgot on a page underneath a folder? Just peel it back (no dragging or minimizing). More than a sentence? Simply make the folder your working on more transparent so you can read through it (no shuffling)! Linux is the true Dare to be Different OS with Xgl! Apple Aqua is just a want-a-be 3-D interface no different than MS Vista! Xgl Linux is the only true fully accelerated 3-D desktop and they’ve done it before the others could even get the thought out of their brain. Just admit it! They now own a Capital “F” for Freaking Fantastically Fun Desktops, no doubt!

I could really care less about all the arguing on which is more productive. And I’m not a bit embarrassed about having Eye Candy enhancing the way I feel about and use my Xgl Desktop in such a free and open way! Where everything bends and moves in defiance of conventional rigid rules! My girlfriend just loves it and calls it “Orgasmic”. Frankly I don’t mind one bit that it turns her on so much. Plus her being a blond and able to use it immediately is an unusual Linux trait.

The Xgl Desktop gives us so many of the intangibles that can’t be shown in a video only experienced hands on like driving a fast new sports car! Now that’s Fun! And there certainly isn’t anything wrong with being fun is there?

Monark, now why do you have to go and ruin a fairly interesting thread by throwing bombs at Mac users. Clearly, you haven’t gotten out much in the last 6 years, as Macs are fully *NIX siblings to the Linux world. They can be customized just as much as your beautiful litlte *NIX OS. Don’t like Aqua? Theme it. Don’t like the Finder? Replace it with several other tools. Want to use Gnome? Go ahead? KDE? That’s fine. X11? It’s right in the box, thanks to Apple. Want a package mangement system like apt or yum? We’ve got DarwinPorts and Fink.

And your statements about Aqua and 3D acceleration are just plain wrong. Apple, with Quartz Extreme, was the first of the bunch to offload the compositing of the OS graphics and layers to the GPU. Vista followed next, and Linux is the latecomer to the party with Xgl/Compiz.

And who cares whether Xlg/Compiz is available on a live CD? Can I get any real work done with a Live CD? No. It’s a nice demo, but apart from that, it’s useless.

Wake me up when the bugs are squashed and I can run Xgl/Compiz without any additional twiddling after the OS install. Until then, it’s nothing more than a geek tool.

Why do the Apple PWNED have to get so butt hurt? Your balloon sized egos always stand out while the rest of you blend into your one color generic OS and yeh they’re isn’t any thing more you can do with your Mac than I can do with linux, either. OS-X has nothing on Linux and remember they are both Unix derivities (as you say) and the only difference is one’s Free and Open. It’s the Mac Attitude of being Better or Different than their father (unix)! It’s like they’re all lost adopted souls with no real parents like Steven Jobs himself. He’s got that complex!

So you can run Xgl Linux Desktop cube on your OS-X computer right now? So if you can why can’t we see it? Do a video, we all want to see it! On windows or linux I can perfectly reproduce OS-X themed desktop so you can barely tell which one it is! Now let’s see you run the cube on your Mac OS-X desktop?

If you can do it outside of having all the linux Xgl/Compiz OpenGL, then let’s see it? In fact let’s see it with Xgl/Compiz running with all the plugins! You can’t, so you won’t or else it would have been done ALREADY! Back Your Statements UP!

Answer me this? Have you ever sat down hands on with Xgl and Linux? No!!!! You consider that beneath you, you freakin hypocritical lying Mac loser! Let us know in 5 yrs when you have the Cube running dude and can show us the video, cuz I’ve heard all that Apple crap for the last 8 months and still no proof Xgl desktop will run on a Mac! Xgl is more than just a theme moron and you couldn’t do it! The END! Sayonara to that claim!

You’ve seen the results from the survey? Right? :cool:

monark, now your bashing Macs without having spent any real time with them. If you had you’d know there are a ton of ways to customize the interface so it doesn’t look like a traditional mac. Just like there are in windows. Your blowing your own credability dood, quit while your ahead.

The poll results are skewed, we have one really long flashy demo of xgl, vs one short demo on only one aspect of a future Aqua desktop, vs Windows, which no one is argueing. Of course the results are going to be vs the flashy video. But I use all three interfaces daily, I really do, so I was commenting on my preferences and why I have them.

As I have said repeadedly, I fully expect XGL/Compiz to be the standard shortly, but its not yet. As of right now Compiz is 90% glitze and 10% useful. Oh and the useful bits were copied from Apple. (expose)

If you wnat to live on the bleeding edge, cool go for it, I have fun doing it too, but when I try to find the most “advanced” desktop, it has to be useful too, and right now Aqua is polished, easily customized and doesn’t get in its own way.

Now it should be noted I am typing this post on, my Ubuntu install using XGL/Compiz. ;)

Ok kaseiffert! This is the way I see it! Unix (born by AT&T in 1960′s) is granpa to all modern OS systems (even DOS and NT in an abstract way). Linux, BSD, Solaris, OS-X are just some of it’s grandchildren. Why does the OS-X part of the family have to dis-inherit the rest of the family and claim superiority over all else? And yes Linux is using “Expose”, but it doesn’t belong to Apple! It is open source and has always been available to us, as has many of Apples transitions and special effects including “Docks”!

Xgl and Compiz are open source as well and if Apple wants to use those tools they will be able to, but as of right now they don’t even have the necessary drivers available yet from Nvidia, ATI, or updated DRI. Thus no Xgl for them as yet.

YES! Windows Vista and Mac OS-X have desktops that utilize some 3-D and 2-D transitions and effects on their desktops, but Xgl and Linux are the first to put their Desktop on top of 3-D acceleration! Where everything is accelerated in 3-D if it’s capable of it and that’s what neither Vista or OS-X can do right now! This is the only desktop that uses vectored graphics to draw it’s desktop without having to redraw it after every move. Yes Vista has some new applications like the new Office program that use vectored png graphics and 3-D acceleration to speed up it’s operation and appeal, but they didn’t bring those in until after Linux had done it to their whole OS. Vista itself still uses BMP’s and is still stuck in 2-D Land with occaisional glimpses into 3-D Land as is OS-X (save, except for effects and transitions)! Linux is Living in 3-D Land with Xgl and that’s the difference!

Why can’t anyone else just admit for once that Open Source Works and has created something new and innovative that looks beautiful to boot? You have, you say, but it’s qualified by an early incomplete evaluation of just how Xgl is a benefit over the Vista and OS-X 2-D destop along with it. The wobbly windows in Xgl are just a taste of the fact that your desktop in running in 100% true 3-D 100% of the time. The biggest benefits are an increase in speed, along with an absurd amount of resource handling capabilities (that should be evident in the video if not your own Ubuntu Xgl desktop). The other benefits are really hard to quantify in any real sense, especially considering this baby’s still in the womb and as yet hasn’t taken it’s first flight.

No I don’t use OS-X on a regular basis. My machine has been being neglected, your right. And yes it doesn’t look typical Mac when it boots, but it’s still just plain too Vanilla for me and the OS and Applications are just way too expensive and Apple DRM proprietary. The newest Intel Macs are as crammed with DRM as Windows machines and have a wonderful Big Brother Intel DRM Security chip onboard your only choice of hardware. And that, it uses in co-operation with Apple against Us!

The Vista OS has even more power to control our computers and do everything from shut our systems down to deprive us of features you paid for. YOU are marked as soon as you log in to either of these machines and they have the power not you (Proxies, VitualMachines and Hypertunneling won’t do you any good, your still transmiting that chip ID). Linux and it’s siblings (excluding OS-X) are the only ones that remain under your control, Free and Open. And thanks to the Open Source Software Community and it’s recent conferences will remain 1984 DRM Spy Control Free! :D

Not interested in the OS10 XGL War, but I watched these videos the other day and installed SuSe Linux with XGL. This is way freakin kool, but that guy with the xgl vid says he uses middle mouse button to drag and control the cube, spin it, and rotate it with scroll. How?

HOW CAN I DO THAT???

I mean all that zoomin in and out and rotating and other special moves he’s doing. Where’s an instruction book on this??? Is there a way to change the keyboard shortcuts. This default combo keyboard move for that is sorta awkward and I’m a gamer with a fast multi-button laser mouse! !…. and I want to use it without touching the keyboard unless I have to!!!!!!

Help Please? Anybody?

Lets not turn this into a flame war guys. Thanks!

The Mac Observer just posted a new story the dives into the history behind 3-D desktop environments. Story: “The Devil’s Advocate – Mac UI Ain’t All That: The Future & History of the User Interface (with Snazzy New UI Videos)“

gamez2much said: Not interested in the OS10 XGL War, but I watched these videos the other day and installed SuSe Linux with XGL. This is way freakin kool, but that guy with the xgl vid says he uses middle mouse button to drag and control the cube, spin it, and rotate it with scroll. How?

HOW CAN I DO THAT???

I mean all that zoomin in and out and rotating and other special moves he’s doing. Where’s an instruction book on this??? Is there a way to change the keyboard shortcuts. This default combo keyboard move for that is sorta awkward and I’m a gamer with a fast multi-button laser mouse! !…. and I want to use it without touching the keyboard unless I have to!!!!!!

Help Please? Anybody?

openSUSE has a great reference list of popular keyboard/mouse shortcuts on their Compiz page. Give a try!

So you’re new to Linux and need help too. Right? Well you’re in the wrong place, but I’ll try.

You know in your applications you have terminals and consoles. Open one up!
Now type > gconf-editor > press enter and a panel will pop up!

In the panel look “apps”!
>compiz >plugins >rotate > screen0 next click options! Now double click
>initiate and in the value put “Button2″ (minus quotations)
You’re done!

Now here is where you need to go to get the latest Xgl/Compiz news and downloads:

http://www.compiz.net/ Any further questions can be answered here!

***** Now for “monark”! STFU You are right on alot of stuff, but to most of these people don’t know what you’re talking about!!! You are coming in here totally off the wall so just shut it! *****Quite Bashing!!!

Every forum has at least one moron who thinks that their way is the only way. Way to go, Monark, for filling that quota!

You and many people like you enjoy spending time customizing their computer(s). For some it’s overclocking, for others it’s case mods and cooling systems (obviously those often go along with the overclocking crowd), and a whole list of other hobbies and/or professions. But you’re so caught up in your obsession that you think yours is the only right way. It’s so bad that you can’t even talk about the actual merits of an OS. You have to resort to describe (very poorly and inaccurately) the users of such systems.

I use Windows regularly, though never by choice. I certainly don’t need to explain to anyone on this forum that there are better options.

I use Linux (Ubuntu, Gentoo, and others, and both Gnome and KDE environments) at work. I love the efficiency and much of the interface. I’ve been using Linux for years. (My brother got hooked in 1995 and I was exposed soon after.)

But personally I only buy Macs. I just don’t like to spend the time it takes to get a Linux box functional. I can do a clean install of OSX in under 30 minutes and every feature works when I’m done, without a single command line executed. (Well, at least not by me directly. That’s the point.)

I don’t want you to use a Mac. I couldn’t care less. But pull your head out of your butt and realize that just because you like to spend your time customizing and comparing and installing and compiling doesn’t mean everyone does. And it sure as hell doesn’t mean we all wear the same clothes or whatever other nonsense you have in your head. It just means that our computers are tools to get the job done, not a lifestyle. When we’re done with our work we put the computers away and go on with other aspects of our lives. For instance, I spend time with my wife and the computer isn’t even involved. Gasp! Try it sometime.

In the meantime get a grip.

Alexander – Nice comparisons. I agree that OSX is poorly represented, and that the results are obviously skewed as a result (and also as a result of the demographic of your readers; try the same poll with the same videos on a Mac site or a Windows site and see where the numbers go, with nothing else changed). But I commend you for actually comparing instead of just ignorantly propogating misperceptions.

I look forward to the day that a solid Linux distribution is A) effortless to install; B) as visually appealing and interactive as your videos show; and C) entirely non-dependent on command line operations. (At least to the point that OSX is now. There are still plenty of advanced functions that can be performed on OSX through the command line that aren’t available in GUI form. But they’re completely optional. Most users can own a Mac for years and not even come across a need for these operations.)

When these criteria are met (and I have no doubt that they will be eventually) and Adobe releases their suite (or at the very least Photoshop) for Linux, I will switch.

Until then I’m happy to pay extra for my hardware for the convenience that OSX affords me. That time savings more than covers the investment. If altering my computer was my idea of a pasttime then I would feel differently.

- Jon

Monark,

I do admit open source works I do admit that unix is the grandfather of most modern OSs but non of that was the question that was posed…. We could turn this into a flameware abotu apple vs Linux on a whole or we could answer the orginal question posed in the poll. You have your opinion I have mine.

I feel Apple’s Aqua is a more polished user friendly interface than XGL/Compiz as it is today. its my opinion, last I knew I was entitled to it, your not going to change my mind, especially not by changing the topic and making me argue other points completely.

Please don’t accuse me of not liking or supporting open source just because we have differeing opinions. That was never the point of this article/poll. I do support Open Source as much as is reasoable in my work and extensivly, personally, but I am not going to just blindly claim Open Source is better, just because it is Open Source. Like I said I use all three daily, my opinion ocmes from experiance, and if I had to pick the best desktop gui for ease of use, productivity, and cool factor, I have to say Aqua. Sorry, but its how I feel.

And FYI if you ever decide to pay attention to your Mac again the FOSS community for OS X is thriving and doing well too. Open Source is good, Linux is the future, which is why its best features are encoporated into great OS’s like OS X.

Just to clarify — since Kaseiffert keeps bringing up the poll question. The question is tied to the statement in the first paragraph of the original post which asks “After watching all three videos, tell me which desktop graphics environment looks more advanced (POLL).” So, the “Best” part in the actual poll question refers to which looks more advanced, not who has the best graphics and user interface implementation (not the point — if it were, Apple would probably win hands down).

Alexander Grundner said: Just to clarify — since Kaseiffert keeps bringing up the poll question. The question is tied to the statement in the first paragraph of the original post which asks “After watching all three videos, tell me which desktop graphics environment looks more advanced (POLL).” So, the “Best” part in the actual poll question refers to which looks more advanced, not who has the best graphics and user interface implementation (not the point — if it were, Apple would probably win hands down).

Damn you and your truthfulness… My interpretation is clearly what you meant to write ;)

For the record: I am a cross-platform developer with experience in Linux/Unix- and Windows-programming.

That said, I prefer Linux because of its infrastructure. BUT it has issues:

- Configuring X ist sometimes necessary (mainly for not correctly autoconfigured mouses and video cards) and is really not for Joe Average. The real problem is that the configuration tools are abysmal (both XF86Config and xg86cfg; the latter is graphical, but the UI is from 1989 and is awful to use).

- The driver issue. It is HARD to write a Linux driver. It has to be maintained constantly because the kernel changes. Binary drivers are a no-no, which is the reason why Joe Average has to install the binary video drivers manually. As a rule of thumb, Linux drivers are very expensive for a company because of its lack of a stable interface.

- The overall GUI impression is that its slow. For example, maximize a Konqueror window and then scroll in a dictionary with many files. You can actually notice how the lines are redrawn! I suspect that the font rendering is to blame (but then again, why don’t they precache the renderered fonts?).

- General problems with binary releases. (Note: I am not saying binary-only.) For example, a big game is usually distributed in a binary form. However, because the Linux distros have no unified base, this is risky; it may not run on one distro (for example, because of missing/wrong library versions). I for one cannot play Alpha Centauri in Linux because it crashes (a glibc problem). And it is absolutely unrealistic to demand the source code. The Linux Standard Base project might improve this situation, though.

- Feature-oriented designs. This is very bad and happens often when programmers design the user interface. They stuff all features the code has into the UI and see this as a successful design. The problem: the user does not know about those features (and usually does not even CARE about them). He is interested in the task he wants to do, however. So the GUI has to be task-oriented, not feature-oriented. ESR wrote a good rant about this (it was the one about the CUPS frontends).

- Lack of developer resources. This is so much better in Windows largely because of the MSDN. Even WinAPI coding is easier than X11 coding – not because of the API, but because of the resources (try to find development info for X11). There are many pitfalls in Linux/Unix with shared objects, static libraries etc. and these are mentioned NOWHERE. This is very, very bad, especially for Windows devs trying to start Linux coding. I also miss some tools. IDEs have become decent, but are still outclassed by IDEA, VisualC, and XCode. Also, most IDEs use autotools for building, which is bad, because autotools are a nightmare to develop with. This is getting better however, with scons and other autotools replacements. Still, the IDEs need to support them. Then the situation would be really nice :)

- The attitude. If Linux shall get a foothold in the mainstream, people must become more pragmatic and less evangelist. For example, Qt is STILL bashed because of its dual license, even though this very dual licensing is one of the favourite arguments used for advocating Open Source. Others bash Qt for moc; this is a controversial topic, but its much more pragmatic. Accept binary software (I do not necessarily mean kernel drivers; just some apps and games); if this does not happen, Adobe will NEVER port Photoshop (think of how much PS would push Linux – graphics artists no longer had to reboot into Windows). As for the drivers, they are attacking the only way XGL can work: with drivers capable of useful 3D acceleration. The day the nvidia/ati drivers are banned, XGL is likely to die. And sooner or later the entire Linux desktop. Yes, I know OpenGraphics. Good effort, but hopelessly outclassed by the big guys. They may have actual hardware in 4-5 years, with TODAYS features, which means that it will have very old features ONLY. Not good, especially for games. Intels 3D chips are too slow for games, but *maybe* enough for XGL (dont expect too much action though).

- Lack of applications. Cinelerra and Cinepaint are very good, but where is a VirtualDub equivalent? (AVIdemux comes close, but is not as powerful.) Photoshop? (GIMP, while technically on-par, has no chance; PS’ real advantage is its interface, because *everyone* is accustomed to it, every book mentions it, many graphics studios have everything calibrated for it etc.) Acrobat? Flash MX? CoolEdit? (Audacity uses GTK1 and has some real issues) AutoCAD? SolidWorks? Of course this is not the fault of the Linux community, but not accepting binary stuff is. There is NOTHING that even comes close to AutoCAD, and its source will NEVER be released. So no AutoCAD for Linux, go use Windows? (I really hate that answer, and is given to me a lot of times; this attitude actually HURTS Linux, becuase it boils down to the equations “Linux = no AutoCAD, Windows = AutoCAD”).

I see you added a link to Exposé, but to make the comparison with XGL fair & unbiased, you should add Fast User Switching:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/fastuserswitching/

(you know, the 3D cube :-) )

As well as Dashboard:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/theater/dashboard.html
(Dashboard´s useless Widget ripple FX to match the useless “ripple FX” in XGL :-D )

*That* would be a fair comparison. ;)

Also, those are built in features, but if you want more eye candy, 3rd party apps can take advantage of Mac OS X Quartz Extreme:

VirtueDesktops (desktop switching, free), WoW, WinXP, EyeTV
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BB_hza4w-Is

VirtueDesktops+ShadowBook (light sensor reader, free):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zjBu5tS8GPA

VirtueDesktops, Dashboard (built-in) & Expose (built-in) (my take :P – old video)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bJwxU_ZudI0

Useless show-off stuff:
3D flying windows:
http://www.objective-cocoa.org/fene…n/index_en.html

Water:
http://www.macupdate.com/screenshot.php?id=19934
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/19934

To PowerMacX: Good stuff. Thanks!

HAHAH the Apple will win based on the number of videos alone!!!! ;)

Lots of third party progs! Some that Linux uses as well! Like Parallels to run Windows XP on Xgl cube just like OS-X (only it’s the cube not special effects or transitions). Also themers, emulated GUI’s like those on Stardock, Aston, and the rest. Yep and they all have copies of OS-X in simulated desktops, some are real nice and even some parts are used in Vista.

Today with the newest Flash and Ajax we have actual websites that render up almost exact copies of OS-X with transparencies, zoom, and the complete looking Mac GUI!

Web based email w/2gigs mail and 1gig file storage and sharing. A music player, games, drag n drop, zoom dock and everything to make You feel more at home on an OS simulated web page. On OS-X and XP with Flash 8 or 9 it’s real imppressive and a wonderful email program. Even have a Sample Account to check it out with:
http://www.goowy.com

Just going to and signing into this site is a trip, openned full page. But when installed on XP you would swear you’re on a Mac! Bootup, login, zoomer dock, sounds, control panel all OS-X! You think they’ld get sued! All the real copies!
http://osx.portraitofakite.com/

But they’re is one old fake GUI Application that still defies comparrison to anything else. For Windows XP and that’s 3-DNA Desktop! Complete with Skydome and in-game like control. Problem? Number 1 it’s on windows and 2nd it’s not accellerated, but it is beautiful! All your folders and favorites are on walls in Castles to Villas of Spain! It’s a gamers virtual desktop world!
http://www.3dna.net

So as we see to copy is flattery of Mac OS-X and is the best complement! Linux has copied Mac, Windows has copied Mac and even the Web has copied Mac! Now you’ve shown some videos where Apple and some 3rd party programs have copied Xgl Linux! So all I have to say is “Thanks for the Complement”! It can only get better!

After all Linux is an OS running seamlessly on top of full time 3-D acceleration as if your in a game! And for once it has just as pretty of a face as the competition! But the Greatist difference is the PRICE and that can’t be Beat! :)

Now you’ve shown some videos where Apple and some 3rd party programs have copied Xgl Linux! So all I have to say is “Thanks for the Complement”! It can only get better!

Well, not exactly ;) . The 3D cube effect was already part of OS X *long before* Xgl existed, and was used to switch desktops, but only when switching users. A (free and later open sourced) third party app, called Desktop Manager was created shortly after that took advantage of that built in effect and used it to switch between multiple desktops for a single user. This app source was later further developed by a second programmer and renamed Virtue (then VirteDesktops), which is what you see on the linked videos, but it has only small differences compared with the original Desktop Manager (other than compatibility/bug fixes).

No, Multiple Desktops is not Apple’s invention (of course!), but neither is it Linux’, it was first used in the grandfather OS, Unix.

Also, I’ve played with Xgl/Compiz on Ubuntu and it is really slick, altough if I think I would get tired of the wobbling windows & menus really fast. Luckily that can be turned off pretty easily.

There is a new accelertion architecture for Linux called Glucose which seems like it would fix the one annoying thing about Xgl+Compiz: mixing the accelerated desktop & OpenGL apps seamlessly.

More info at: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=15511

Ok so what I’m wondering is whether “VirteDesktops” is real time 3-D accellerated or not? Really all Xgl has added is that it is literally running the cube on top OpenGL Server itself. Right?

So basicallyApple is responsible for about everything having to do with the desktop developed in more recent years. Except some of the great stuff with programs such as 3-DNA real world environments!

I would like to see something like 3-DNA where you could morph around in that environment instead of walking around slowly. Like a time machine or warping in a 3-D environment where you are using parchment to write a letter on not a square straight line, unnatural computer screen folder. Borderless panels and themes where the only things you see over your desktop are the open/close buttons and the things inside it. Everything else would be transparent like in Minority Report and other films!

But thanks anyway for all the info and links in your post!
Appreciate It! :)

PowerMacX said: Also, I’ve played with Xgl/Compiz on Ubuntu and it is really slick, altough if I think I would get tired of the wobbling windows & menus really fast. Luckily that can be turned off pretty easily.

There is a new accelertion architecture for Linux called Glucose which seems like it would fix the one annoying thing about Xgl+Compiz: mixing the accelerated desktop & OpenGL apps seamlessly.

More info at: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=15511

Went to Link! Seems Glucose is a method of pulling Xgl and Aiglx (two competing new X servers) together. Elsewhere the news is Xgl is the pick to be totally integrated into X.org itself by 2008. Or should I say Xorg will be totally integrated into Xgl by then. So that leaves the Red Hat version behind in the acceleration drawing race.

Some other interesting news is Microsoft is backtracking on their earlier claim of not supporting OpenGL in Vista (except an old version). Now they’ve changed their mind and it will be fully supported. Why? No doubt due to game developers cries and that of graphic artists as Direct X is notoriously slow. Plus with Wii and PS3 only using OpenGL majority of games are made without Direct X support. Such are the news blurps out of Direct X 10 development which as yet has not been integrated into Vista.

What I’m wondering about now is, does anybody know what Microsoft is using for their Xbox 360 games which have all been developed using G-5 Macs!!! Seems to me since Microsoft Direct X has never been supported on IBM G-5 architecture, they’ld be using OpenGL. Which would make all the game developers very happy having just one shader engine for all console and PC formats to develope for!

# PowerMacX? You’re wrong about the cube going to Mac first! David Reveman of Novell proposed the Cube well over two years ago and demonstrated it in October last year with it’s release in November. Mac has been a leader no doubt, but with full 3-D Desktop acceleration using OpenGL, Linux has taken a leap ahead. Resource handling has taken a monster leap with Xgl and is expected to go even futher. Like “kaseifert has said “he expects Xgl/Compiz to be the standard”.

# VirtueDesktops is a aftermarket Mac desktop window manager and the Cube is a concept that has not, as yet been integrated into OS-X. It is also widely accepted that OS-X basicly stole many of it’s ideas for Quartz Extreme from the “Looking Glass Project” sponcered by SUN! But none of these are accelerated as is Xgl!!!

xgl-goowy said: # PowerMacX? You’re wrong about the cube going to Mac first! David Reveman of Novell proposed the Cube well over two years ago and demonstrated it in October last year with it’s release in November.

Both the cube effect & Exposé were introduced with Panther (Mac OS X 10.3) in 2003. ;)
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/pan…dersystem2.html
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.3.ars/6

xgl-goowy said: # VirtueDesktops is a aftermarket Mac desktop window manager and the Cube is a concept that has not, as yet been integrated into OS-X.

Yes, I mentioned it was a 3rd party app. But the cube *is* integrated into the OS, only it is used for switching users by default, not desktops (that’s where VirtueDesktops comes into play).

xgl-goowy said: It is also widely accepted that OS-X basicly stole many of it’s ideas for Quartz Extreme from the “Looking Glass Project” sponcered by SUN! But none of these are accelerated as is Xgl!!!

The looking glass project no doubt inspired a *lot* of new ideas, although the concept was more like being “inside” the cube, as opposed to desktops mapped to the outside faces.

As for OS X not being accelerated, you got that bit wrong ;)
This page has a nice summary/history of Quartz which explains it very clearly, starting with how it worked back in 2001 to the present:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/macosx-10.4.ars/13
(check the following two pages too)

dv_ said: 
- Configuring X ist sometimes necessary (mainly for not correctly autoconfigured mouses and video cards) and is really not for Joe Average. The real problem is that the configuration tools are abysmal (both XF86Config and xg86cfg; the latter is graphical, but the UI is from 1989 and is awful to use).

FYI, Xorg is the new X standard protocol replacing the XFree86. Most Linux distribution uses the modular version of Xorg which is 7.0. while other uses the monolith version Xorg 6.9. “Joe Average” with a good community support can manually configure it. Most mouse and videocard are automatically detected unless they are an obscure model.

[auote]- The driver issue. It is HARD to write a Linux driver. It has to be maintained constantly because the kernel changes. Binary drivers are a no-no, which is the reason why Joe Average has to install the binary video drivers manually. As a rule of thumb, Linux drivers are very expensive for a company because of its lack of a stable interface.[/quote]

FYI, MS Windows systems come with generic drivers as well and users will have to manuall install 3d driver for hardware acceleration. Mac OS X is not even comparable because Apple only develop a specific system. I will have to disagree about getting a binary driver inside a kernel because Linux rapid progress will be dramatically affected. Remember what happened when Fedora developers decide to use 4KSTACKS on the kernel which practically exposed the major flaw of the proprietary model like Nvidia driver. As a result, it took four month for them to fix that issue. To show your flaw of your statement, Wacom is participating with open source developer for their product like Graphire which works very well.

- The overall GUI impression is that its slow. For example, maximize a Konqueror window and then scroll in a dictionary with many files. You can actually notice how the lines are redrawn! I suspect that the font rendering is to blame (but then again, why don’t they precache the renderered fonts?).

Which distribution did you use? Maybe you have a legacy distribution like Mandrake 9.1. If so, you should really consider to upgrade or change for a modern version. Most issues are practically gone. Then again, you can always switch to different desktop environments.

- General problems with binary releases. (Note: I am not saying binary-only.) For example, a big game is usually distributed in a binary form. However, because the Linux distros have no unified base, this is risky; it may not run on one distro (for example, because of missing/wrong library versions). I for one cannot play Alpha Centauri in Linux because it crashes (a glibc problem). And it is absolutely unrealistic to demand the source code. The Linux Standard Base project might improve this situation, though.

I have to disagree because you are talking about a game that was originaly designed for Windows and ported by a third party company that went out of business. As a result, nobody bothered to fix these issues. It has nothing to do with the lack of unified base. If it was, then you haven’t seen ID software, Epic Gaming, EA and Atari games running on a Linux distro. The real problem is the lack of interest for most gaming company to port their game to Linux world economic side.

- Feature-oriented designs. This is very bad and happens often when programmers design the user interface. They stuff all features the code has into the UI and see this as a successful design. The problem: the user does not know about those features (and usually does not even CARE about them). He is interested in the task he wants to do, however. So the GUI has to be task-oriented, not feature-oriented. ESR wrote a good rant about this (it was the one about the CUPS frontends).

Nope it should not because having different interfaces will bring more confusions for the user than it solve. Result, they look out of place. Take a look on applications that run on Mac OSX, most of them are consistent with the desktops which is why that method is preferred for other desktop environmet.

- Lack of developer resources. This is so much better in Windows largely because of the MSDN. Even WinAPI coding is easier than X11 coding – not because of the API, but because of the resources (try to find development info for X11). There are many pitfalls in Linux/Unix with shared objects, static libraries etc. and these are mentioned NOWHERE. This is very, very bad, especially for Windows devs trying to start Linux coding. I also miss some tools. IDEs have become decent, but are still outclassed by IDEA, VisualC, and XCode. Also, most IDEs use autotools for building, which is bad, because autotools are a nightmare to develop with. This is getting better however, with scons and other autotools replacements. Still, the IDEs need to support them. Then the situation would be really nice :)

WinAPI might be easier but it is a hack approach rather than logical. You speak from a Windows developers perspective who don’t bother to know that Linux is not Windows and will never be.

Accept binary software (I do not necessarily mean kernel drivers; just some apps and games); if this does not happen, Adobe will NEVER port Photoshop (think of how much PS would push Linux – graphics artists no longer had to reboot into Windows).

Won’t happen and there are alternative for Photoshop available other than Gimp like Pixel32.

As for the drivers, they are attacking the only way XGL can work: with drivers capable of useful 3D acceleration. The day the nvidia/ati drivers are banned, XGL is likely to die. And sooner or later the entire Linux desktop. Yes, I know OpenGraphics.

XGL is not the only solution. Xorg 7.1 has AIGLX that use the existing approach to generate effect. Glucose is just announced for taking advantage of the directed acceleration. The modular approach of Xorg 7.1 is much easier for videocard manufacturer than it was for XFree86. ATI problem is mostly poor management among themselves losing their sales in favor for Nvidia.

Not good, especially for games. Intels 3D chips are too slow for games, but *maybe* enough for XGL (dont expect too much action though).

- Lack of applications. Cinelerra and Cinepaint are very good, but where is a VirtualDub equivalent? (AVIdemux comes close, but is not as powerful.) Photoshop? (GIMP, while technically on-par, has no chance; PS’ real advantage is its interface, because *everyone* is accustomed to it, every book mentions it, many graphics studios have everything calibrated for it etc.) Acrobat? Flash MX? CoolEdit? (Audacity uses GTK1 and has some real issues) AutoCAD? SolidWorks? Of course this is not the fault of the Linux community, but not accepting binary stuff is. There is NOTHING that even comes close to AutoCAD, and its source will NEVER be released. So no AutoCAD for Linux, go use Windows? (I really hate that answer, and is given to me a lot of times; this attitude actually HURTS Linux, becuase it boils down to the equations “Linux = no AutoCAD, Windows = AutoCAD”).

It has nothing to do with binary stuffs. Once the open source equivalent will prove to be superior to the proprietary’s, the latter will realise they have to adapt or losing moneys.

This is me, Quinn, and I wanted to mention, I’m not at all part of the novell team. I work with a loose group of community developers who simply like to extend compiz. I have not been approached by novell at all, and have only exchanged a few e-mails with David. I am actually currently unemployed. Just wanted to clear that up. Happened across this thread during vanity-googling, heh.

In case anyone is interested… Linux Journal just posted a how-to on getting XGL/Compiz up and running in Ubuntu Dapper. Personally, I’d recommend that people who use Ubuntu to just wait until October when XGL/Compiz will part of the Edgy Eft release by default — it will be as easy as clicking a button to enable it :D

Alexander Grundner said: See… to me this type of thinking is interesing. XGL/Compiz is basically a graphical extension to any windowing environment on Linux. When you speak about useability and ease of use, GNOME and KDE are right up there with Windows XP and OS X. In fact, if you never want to see or use the command line, you don’t have to in either of these environments. It should be noted that most Linux users look at using the command line terminal as a power-user’s tool, which sits there ideally until your ready.

Tip: Great little reference book on bash commands – Linux Phrasebook

My suggestion to anyone who is interested in taking Linux for a spin without having to install it on there PC is to download and burn a LiveCD of one or few of the most popular distributions — i.e. Ubuntu, Knoppix, Mepis (see DistroWatch for more).

My first post :D

Well, this has not been my experience with Linux. I am using Ubuntu 6.0.6.1. There is no way to install ATI drivers without using command line…. not and have them work anyway. That may be it but getting the computer functioning correctly is essential. If you want networking…. command line and lots of other things may require it as well. Its not all gui yet.

Now mind you, im not complaining and intend to continue using Ubuntu. I really like it!! All im saying is its not totally command line free yet and may never be.

If you are thinking about trying Linux out for the first time then my advice is to try it. Be patient. Work with it. It is not Windows so do not expect it to be!

Alexander Grundner said: In case anyone is interested… Linux Journal just posted a how-to on getting XGL/Compiz up and running in Ubuntu Dapper. Personally, I’d recommend that people who use Ubuntu to just wait until October when XGL/Compiz will part of the Edgy Eft release by default — it will be as easy as clicking a button to enable it :D

I’m interested :D
Has anyone had luck using this how-to?

jrjr said: I’m interested :D
Has anyone had luck using this how-to?

I haven’t used the one at Linux Journal, but the instructions on this thread at Ubuntu Forums worked great for me using an NVIDIA GeForce 6200 graphics card:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=131267

My video demo on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9JC5NQ7G0o

Yea.. thats some way cool stuff!
Im in the middle of ATI driver hell at the moment. Maybe when I get through this…. LOL

I hear that AIGLX works well with ATI cards, as opposed to XGL. BTW, in general, NVIDIA card drivers are better supported under Linux.

Just bought some xtra bandwidth for this!
Freshest, Fastest and Easiest Way to Try or Install a system with Xgl known to Man! This is Sabayon Linux newest Mini Install CD! Loaded and you can almost install it with your eyes closed! Even running it Live Xgl enabled is simple by just typing>> gentoo xgl < ******Download*Burn*Enjoy*Xgl*Fun*******

http://www.box.net/public/static/4tmh6vxjly.iso

Just in case My Box.net Bandwidth gets used up! Here’s some previews and Europe Download Sites but slow. $ Box.net is very fast download $
http://www.lxnaydesign.net/

P.S. Yes Alex your right and that just a difference in philosophies. David Reveman wants to get Xgl working without proprietary drivers and is working with Ati and Red Hat and Nvidia are teaming up to keep proprietary support involved. Now with Glucose we won’t need proprietary drivers and this will keep the “Free Software Foundation (FSF)” and “GPL” happy.

Another way to link to this file!
http://www.box.net/public/4tmh6vxjly

So simple you won’t believe it and it has best working of the versions of Quinn Storm Xgl/Compiz! All enabled for you! Nice system with latest everything even kernel 2.6.17 and just released KDE plus an amazing amount download resources. Has a new Kuroo Install program graphical interface to make installations a breeze!

I installed and it’s working fine using this:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=245152
I’m using the older ATI driver though. It should be interesting when driver update time comes. LOL

Is xgl available yet for users running any Linux on either a Mac PPC or one of the new Intel-based Macs?

compasspnt said: Is xgl available yet for users running any Linux on either a Mac PPC or one of the new Intel-based Macs?

Yes, it runs perfectly on MacBooks & (Intel)Mac minis. No idea about PPC Macs or non-Intel GMA950 graphics (ie, iMac/MacBook Pro: ATI X1600, Mac Pro: NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT/ATI RADEON X1900 XT/NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500)

Edit: “any Linux” being Ubuntu in this case

A couple of Italians have a screaming install going for PC’s plus you can download the Newly released version for the Mac Mini here:

http://www.lxnaydesign.net/index.ph…ntpage&Itemid=1

And PowerMacX they say if someone donates a Full Mac w/Intel they will release a version for that as well.

By the way liked all your posts and you provide lots of great information. I just checked out some of the newest demos of Leopard and I’m thoroughly impressed. Note Apple stock is just beginning to reflect the work and decisions Apple is putting into their systems.

Good news awaits those Mac OS people when they purchase a PS3 Game Computer too. It has been stated for along time OS-X could run on it, but it will run natively with no hardware or software emulation needed. I think most everyone knows by now that Microsoft developed their Xbox 360 Games on PowerPC Macs with OS-X! ;D Thanks to that fired MS Whistle Blower!

So the question is which OS will be running on Xbox 360 first now that the bios is hacked and their running their own hypervisor! No matter as it’ll make a nice media center with either linux w/MythTV of Leopard running!

Just to point out, Aqua is just the theme. Quartz, Quartz Extreme, the Core APIs (Image, Video and Animation) and OpenGL make up the graphics libraries in OS X. As for the capabilities of OS X’s graphics system:

http://arawareru.com/zugakousaku/qc_samples/

That’s completely done in Quartz Composer. Rotating cubes have been around since Panther (2003) and there’s nothing to have prevented someone allowing you to control the rotating of a cube yourself. The wobbly windows thing has been available in concept since 2000 when Apple demoed the genie effect.

XGL looks nice, but I haven’t seen anything there that truly impresses me enough. It’s much like with Vista a lot of the stuff does look impressive to Windows users but when you’ve lived with similar stuff for years it looks a little tame in comparison

EDIT: There’s also this page showing the window warping abilities of quartz – http://blog.medallia.com/2006/05/windowwarp.html

Re: Pilky
Nice demo video! OS-X graphics system is very rich and featureful. It is the first and best system to masterfully innovate the GUI, no doubt.

The cube in Xgl is real time, on the fly generated and controlled like being in a game. But it is just one of more than twenty plugins to date (more goodies are being developed). That’s the one thing that makes it different! The cube is the Desktop and is why you can split folders on two sides at the same time. Granted other games, other operating systems and other 3rd party developers (like VirtueDesktops by Tony ?) have had similiar things going on before the Linux cube. But Linux is getting the credit for it and spreading it’s use over the entire world. People in China are spinning the cube and wobbling windows. In Africa people are getting down and bumping folders. Everybody around the world wants to wobble their desktops because of Linux is speaking loudest the Universal Language of eMotion! Even Mac Fans wanta Spin and wobble on Linux and why not it’s Free!

Linux is a working mans OS that costs $0.00 and is just not supposed to outdo in a poll (like Alex presented here), Expensive Operating Systems and make them look slow and primitive by comparison!

Yes the Mac OS (especially Leopard) continues to WoW me with it’s abilities, but Steven Jobs and Company are turning the whole world against them with their assinine trademarking of common terms such as “Pod” and suiing common people for using it (and other Apple Corporate Screw-ups, failed lawsuits and such lately).

Management has gotten so Elitists and Snobish about everything Apple, many people refuse to see with an open mind Apple Products, thereby missing any of it’s superior features or abilities. Next Stevie may make it illegal to even buy a common “apple” in the store.

When is Steve going to learn you don’t sue potential customers! Even the R.I.A.A. is beginning to get that hint, but not Apple and Steven Jobs! For all the good Apple Devs and Designers do for the Computing World it turns to nought in the eyes of the world with antics like the iPod debaccle!

In the end with the screens posted at medallia, Apple fans appear to be followers digging up discarded features only hinted at, that Millions of Linux users are using everyday (legally! at least until Stevie Trademarks the “cube” or something), right now on their free desktops everywhere the World over!

Want to see some kickass XGL/Compiz action? Checkout the following Touchscreen Demo:

3D Desktop! TouchScreen and XGL on Linux (part 2)

xgl-goowy said: Re: Pilky
Nice demo video! OS-X graphics system is very rich and featureful. It is the first and best system to masterfully innovate the GUI, no doubt.

The cube in Xgl is real time, on the fly generated and controlled like being in a game. But it is just one of more than twenty plugins to date (more goodies are being developed). That’s the one thing that makes it different! The cube is the Desktop and is why you can split folders on two sides at the same time. Granted other games, other operating systems and other 3rd party developers (like VirtueDesktops by Tony ?) have had similiar things going on before the Linux cube. But Linux is getting the credit for it and spreading it’s use over the entire world. People in China are spinning the cube and wobbling windows. In Africa people are getting down and bumping folders. Everybody around the world wants to wobble their desktops because of Linux is speaking loudest the Universal Language of eMotion! Even Mac Fans wanta Spin and wobble on Linux and why not it’s Free!

The problem a lot of people see is that it looks like Quartz isn’t capable of these functions when it has been for quite a while (those warped windows have been available for years). The only difference is that nobody has implemented them that way. You could, if you wanted, have had a rotating cube that you can control in Panther. However nobody saw the benefit. As good as the FUS cube in OS X is I still believe its more eye candy than anything else in OS X and I feel the same about the cube in XGL, it doesn’t show too much in the way of usability enhancements. It looks cool but it doesn’t speed up productivity at all. The same goes for wobbly windows, what possible usability enhancement does it provide? Despite what people think, almost all of the eye candy in OS X is there to enhance usability.

Linux is a working mans OS that costs $0.00 and is just not supposed to outdo in a poll (like Alex presented here), Expensive Operating Systems and make them look slow and primitive by comparison!

You are however comparing a graphics system to two OS themes. I would be like saying what is better, Quartz are Luna. If everyone who took part in the poll was looking at it from a technical point of view then the scores would be much different. If they were to be comparing ease of use of the UI then it would also be a lot different. Instead they are seeing wobbly windows and user rotatable cubes and thinking that it’s something revolutionary. I can understand the reaction people in the Linux world are having to XGL and the windows world are having to Vista’s graphics, it’s the same reaction Mac users had years ago when they got these capabilities

In the end with the screens posted at medallia, Apple fans appear to be followers digging up discarded features only hinted at, that Millions of Linux users are using everyday (legally! at least until Stevie Trademarks the “cube” or something), right now on their free desktops everywhere the World over!

Where would these discarded features be? Everything I’ve shown you is what Quartz is capable of in Tiger (ie since 2005).

Re: Pilky
Discarded, meaning they aren’t even available to most OS-X users yet. Otherwise I would be using them. And the reality is that we both know neither Quartz or Xgl/Compiz are even close to utilizing their full potential on either system.

I’ve seen the Leopard previews and Yes I’m impressed and the computing world owes Apple a huge thank you! But at the same time if it wasn’t for the Open Source Community (which Apple is a part of to a degree) being active in innovating the Desktop in the first place over the years, Apple wouldn’t have the Mesa Project, Sun Java or Applets, OpenGL, Glide, Widgets, GNU Darwin, Expose, Vectored Graphics, PNG, and a list too long to count that they’ve used to build their own graphics system.

Everybody forgets what groups and programs like the Linux window manager did with animating the first desktop with epplets or Linux and widgets before OS-X was born. So many other things that Open Source has given the entire OS community that credit is never given for.

Remember OS-X is very young and like all modern creations and ideas, it’s roots are built on everything that came before it. That’s one of Steven Jobs worst traits (besides being one hell of a liar) is you never hear him give credit where credit is due. Even some of Apple’s 3rd party aps creators and venders get the cold shoulder when he’s on stage. Two words describe him best, Pompous and Arrogant! But I do like the OS his developers have put together, no doubt.

But still, OS-X is not built for the common person who uses a computer everyday and can’t afford to buy an Apple computer. That’s evident just by looking at the price! It’s an Elitest OS and that’s the main difference between the two. That’s why Xgl Linux will be installed on more computers worldwide in ten years than any other OS. With Linux use growing the fastest in billion+ people countries like China and India it’s just plain obvious. There’s something about Free and Open that spreads like a wildfire in all countries, especially poor ones.

Plus you only have to look at Polls and 5star ratings on Xgl Linux videos here and on YouTube to understand that Xgl is giving Linux the pizzaz, panache, verve, and speed to take Free and Open Linux on a ride to the top! Yeh it may be some eye candy now, but soon enough Xgl Linux will be as common as pizza running plugins that are trully useful.

But if what you want is a “Thank You to Apple” for helping Linux to the top, you got it!

I disagree that Linux is at the top. Having a flashy UI doesn’t make it a good UI. As I pointed out, wobbly windows is simply a toy with 0 benefit to usability. I’ll agree that Linux is ready for the prime time when an average user don’t have to touch a text file or the command line at any point ever. Power users I can understand, but your average user should be able to use the operating system without needing to learn too much about computers.

I’m also not denying that Open source is good. A lot of the stuff I use has some open source part. As a shareware developer I absolutely hate the GPL licence and how limiting it is compared to BSD and as a user I hate how hard it is to find open source desktop applications that have decent UIs. However I’m grateful that my browser is running on an open source engine with my OS on an open source core, my FTP client is open source along with many of my developer tools, that my server is running on open source with an open source server and open source scripting languages and framework.

As for the age of OS X. Saying that OS X is young is like saying that XP is young, that version is. However you can trace OS X back to the mid 80s, before Linux was born. And as for the affordability, no Apple doesn’t make cheap computers, however they don’t make expensive computers and all of their computers are in the low to mid range of prices of equally specced PCs. As I like to point out to people that say Macs are expensive, if you want a cheap PC you will get what you pay for with a slow processor (likely celeron), small amount of ram and a small hard disk with poor build quality and a small screen to match.

To say that Linux is top just based on XGL shows just how far the Linux community has to come before it becomes an OS ready for the prime time. Fancy graphics are one thing, using them is a worthwhile way is another. I think the best idea I’ve heard about is someone saying that for Linux to be successful there needs to be linux hardware companies producing computers with tux on them. When that happens I can see Linux really getting somewhere, until then, to me at least, Ubuntu looks like the best hope

Re: Pilky
Agreed for the most part, except that at least 3 Top hardware manufacturers have recently announced computers with Linux pre-installed. They are Lenovo out of China w/ SuSE 10.0 Enterprise with Xgl. HP (pages of linux info & SuSE 10 sled/xgl support) and even Dell (RedHat & Mandriva in Europe) are now openly offering Linux as well. So top 3 computer manufacturers in the world now offer Linux! And Vista will come prepared to run some Linux applications right from it’s own system. Plus there is a complete Linux distro that installs right into Windows and I’m not talking VMware or Parallels either. [a friend confirmed Windows Fan, works for large Corp. in Seattle, as purchasing agent, just bought over 200 HP Desktops! Selling points: Costs and HP/SuSE in-house Xgl Demo Impressed them posible production increases]

If you are farsighted enough to realize that every PS3 will come with Linux Pre-installed and that their projected sales on the low side are around 45,000,000 by 2010 and the high side 70 million by the end of 2008. Then your talking millions of PS-3′s all loaded with Xgl/Compiz Linux and the Linux Sony Hypervisor all pre-installed and configured running on millions of PS-3′s in Millions of Living Rooms around the World. Well, your talking a whole lot of Cube and Wobbles exposure, from kids to grannies.

If by chance you’re still not aware of the underworld of Linux and how it’s sneaking in and being installed on everything from Xbox, PSPs, various Mp3 players, and even the Apple iPod and PDAs then you should check it out. Due to court rullings against Apple and Microsoft, we can now legally change the function of computer equipment or game boxes we own. Not unlike customizing your car with a performance engine. Flash the bios and do your install, all legally. Granted the case in this country hasn’t gone to court yet, but it would be ludicrous for this country to decide against court decisions in Australia and other world courts. So both Microsoft and Apple are not even mounting much of a fight. Otherwise if you wanted to throw your iPod or PSP in the trash or burn it you couldn’t! And that’s just a very unamerican assault on our freedom to do what we want, with what we own! And soon even the Xbox 360 will be hacked with Linux!

Next we have a consortium of Cell Phone Manufacturers (including Motorolla, Nokia and Samsung) who are working together to design a Linux to totally free themselves of Microsoft’s Licensing fees. We already have many companies using Linux or an Open Source derivitive on Blackberry and Palm (who use a chinese distro) and others. But this is just a taste of the growing power of Linux in the World. I might add that Mac OS is not the only one in Hollywood either and even Pixar and Disney use Linux and Open Source, just ask Steve. A full 70% of all rendering farms run Linux and they do it on everything from Macs to IBM Blades on architectures from PowerPC, AMDs, to Intels!

Don’t forget that among some of the Top Corporations in the Technology field, sit some of largest companies in the World with their own Custom Linux! Sony, HP, Motorolla, Toshiba, IBM, SUN, Fujitsu, NEC, Mercury and many others have a Linux running everything from handhelds to Super Computers. In fact, only a few World Class Supercomputers still run UNIX, IRIX (and other UNIX variations) and only one runs Mac OS! Only one has even broke the 100 TFLOPS barrier, and you probably already know that to be BlueGene/L, now at a “Linpak” Benchmark of 280.6 TFLOPS and I bet you can guess what operating system it’s running too! Yes! It’s LINUX on Top of the Worlds Most Powerful and Fastest Computer!
************************************************** *
“IBM dominates TOP500 supercomputer list
Thu, 2006-06-29 16:45

IBM systems account for 240 of the 500 most powerful supercomputers in the world primarily running Linux……”

**************************************************
“Eve Online breaks concurrent user base “Record” with new IBM Unified “Cell” processor powered Blade System Server with pure RamSan memory (Solid State Harddrives) at 26,000 users online at the same time worldwide running Linux with no glitches or slowdowns.” !!! Gaming, April 6, 2006!!!

**************************************************
The wide variety of Linux Distros provide an almost endless choice in styles and sizes ranging from a whole system on a Floppy to 2 – 4gig DVDs with an almost unimaginable choice of programs that can be Openly customized to your needs!

**************************************************

Have you heard of HPC? “High Performance Computing” using Linux Clusters or HPCC High Performance Computing Clusters! Linux owns this Computing World outright! Just ask Microsoft or Cray…. LOL It’s the clustering of computers into Super Computers a lot more cheaply than building rack mountable blade systems or whole new Super Computers.

**************************************************

Although not for the average Desktop, here you will find a penquin happily circling far above it’s recent kill, Microsoft Windows Cluster Server 2003! Will the fledgling Microsoft Butterfly be able to compete in this world completely dominated by Penquins? Only time will tell!
http://www.penguincomputing.com/ind…?vid=google1020

************************************************** *

“Microsoft officials said the company has learned from the open-source community….. “, now even Microsoft is cracking open the code base (sort of.. heehee), with what they call “Shared Source Iniative”! In fact Microsoft after years of trying to kill Open Source, “have released their first open-source tool to come out of Microsoft group of developers. The WiX (Windows Installer XML) team introduced a new component called Heat for the latest version of the installer, WiX 3.0, in April.” (of course this is 2yrs after WiX was written by a couple of off duty devs)
************************************************** *
Now Pilky you mention a distro that I’ve used and installed among many others, and I think your inferring that this is a simple install and use Linux distro. But I disagree! Ubuntu although a nice distro and probably the finest and friendlyest group of users on the Planet, is anything but easy to install and configure. Plus it uses Gnome as the default “Window Manager”! Which is fine, if you don’t want to fine tune your desktop or are unfamiliar with the great programs KDE has to offer (then you could use Kbuntu). Here’s some more great choices.

“Dreamlinux” is a Live CD install using XFCE Window Manager a nice looking custom desktop and tools with the option of using a Dock from “Enlightment WM”, that is the closest you could get to OS-X with Xgl pre-configured out of box (Ubuntu should have Xgl in next release).

SuSE is a great distro and is very easy to use without much CLI (command line) involved. But my absolute NEW favorite is “Sabayon Linux”! The full DVD install is packed solid with great programs and even the Mini CD (both Live installs) come pre-configured for Xgl on Nvidia and ATI cards. In fact this is the sweetest, easiest install of an OS you’ve ever used Guaranteed bar none!

“Extremely Funny” ***** My granma who has never installed or used Linux at 71 yrs old, picked up an unmarked CD I’d left while visiting her and accidently installed Linux on her computer. I was plum flabergasted when she called me with some crazy questions about her computer being funny after putting one of the CDs in I’d left and starting up her computer the next day. I rushed over (imagining the worst), only to arrive there while she was playing her casino games online with Firefox in Sabayon Linux. She said “This stupid thing doesn’t work like it used to, you gotta fix it or I’m about ready to throw it out”. While she told me the story about following these directions, I was about to pee my pants keeping from laughing. She was missing her phone numbers and little programs off Windows so I migrated her docs to her desktop got some of these small programs running in Wine and showed her how to better use Xgl with middle mouse button “iniate” to drag the cube around. Still complaining, I asked her if she wanted me to uninstall it and set it back to Windows as default! “Oh no, you can just leave it like it is, I’ll try to get used to it”, she stammered as she spun the cube with glee in her eyes. I left just laughing my head off. Does she know any CLI? No! But this system has painless upgradability and chatting with Devs, who are extremely intelligent in putting this together plan on having it CLI-less in the very near future. Try even on a Mac Mini (download from website) and you may be very pleasantly shocked!

Now two weeks later I hear she’s showing it off to all her friends, and brags about how she installed it herself! This is a review by a Gentoo Linux Guru here: http://techgage.com/article/sabayon_linux_rc2

In posts above I’ve put a download link for the mini CD that should download at about 500 kbps. If you want to use Xgl right away just type “gentoo xgl” at boot. This RC-3 release install is even easier and automatic partitioning now works great. *** And Pelki! *** Thanks for intelligently communicating your views which just goes to prove that Mac users are indeed very intelligent people. Also just to let you know, when I get my PS3 Entertainment Computer, OS-X will be one of the first things I’ll install to run with Linux! ;D Oh and the European Playstation site is now up and running what U.S. site Doesn’t Have Yet! Awesome Applelike Class Presentation, even SingStar with iTunes: http://eu.playstation.com/ps3/index.html?locale=en_GB

WHAT? … is this a Mac Mini Selling with Linux Installed????? …….No, but it looks more like a Mac Mini, than a Mac Mini at a better price! http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=2 The last time I checked over 20 sites around the net offer Linux pre-installed!

Yeah Pilky the Mac Mini is a Better Deal than the look alike. Mainly because of OS-X. But now remember for the same price a PS3 is an even better computer deal, cuz it has the Cell, games, blu-ray, etc.! ;D

This news might interest some of you:

Mark Shuttleworth – I was very pleased to see John Vivirito announcing a desktop-effects team for Ubuntu, that will focus on the integration of 3D technology into the desktop like Xgl, Compiz and AIGLX. Folks who are interested in that stuff and want to help make Ubuntu rock in that department please join the team! We’re particularly interested in people who have strong OpenGL experience.

About this team: The Ubuntu-desktop-effects team is dedicated to help users set-up, use, and fix Compiz, AIGLX, and XGL. You can find us on irc.freenode.net in #ubuntu-xgl. Please help triage and shrink these bugs : https://launchpad.net/distros/ubunt…ce/compiz/+bugs https://launchpad.net/distros/ubunt…erver-xgl/+bugs

Xgl Rulez Magic on the Desktop Photo Shuffle!

This is a video of Developer Mac Slow’s New Hot Xgl Plugin! Sort your pictures the easy way just like cards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkrM4ymkiDo

Hey Alexander you’ll love this one! :p

gamez2much said: Xgl Rulez Magic on the Desktop Photo Shuffle!

This is a video of Developer Mac Slow’s New Hot Xgl Plugin! Sort your pictures the easy way just like cards!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkrM4ymkiDo

Hey Alexander you’ll love this one! :p

Sweet! LOVE the new photo management features!

This is a Mac Slow creation! But is not using or associated with Xgl, so he says. This is running some University developed programming (Lowfat) and he has not released the code to Open Source as yet.

But he really wants to get it perfected before releasing this Photo Tool for general release into the Wilds. Sorry the linked video is not correctly stating this and makes it appear to be using Xgl. But it’s still awesome and I still want it for my desktop! :D

Huh? The video description states: “linux lowfat software for picture 3D xgl”

Whatever it is it’s pretty cool. BTW, what the hell is Mac Slow? :confused:

It’s easy to be amazed by eye candy. However, as you start working with a windowing system you start appreciating a system which helps you get the stuff you need to do done as quickly and painless as possible.

I’ve tried XGL/Compiz and agree it’s an impressive display of what may be accomplished by an OpenGL-layer on top of X11. However, it is currently designed for flare and not productivity, as compared to what I’ve seen of Aqua. I’ve never used OS/X myself but from what I’ve read, heard and seen (of videos on the web), the features of the apple desktop each seem to be designed to address a specific set of problems a user would face when trying to accomplish some specific activity. The flare seem to mostly be secondary to productivity.

seeing as Compiz is currently just a technical proof of concept for a new window management system (referred to as composite windowing management by the author) in it’s infancy it’s natural for it to focus on things not previously available in KDE/Gnome (the 2D windowing environments). This is similar to when Javascript of Flash first started appearing on the Web. Those technologies were also (mis-) used to provide visual spectacles. With time however, the use of those technologies were more moderate and focused providing functional benefits instead of simply artistic decorations. This is likely to be the case with Compiz as well, but it will take some time before the overall focus starts switching from trying to visually amaze people to help them become more productive.

Apple has a long history of trying to help users become more productive and OS/X seem to represent their latest efforts in that regard. An OS which helps you do a number of prioritized tasks easily, while spicing it up with moderate amounts of flare and I hope Compiz (or RedHat’s variant) will eventually settle on a similar strategy, with guidelines for ensuring consistent use of the tools provided by the windowing environment (same as Apple and Microsoft has today, but all Linux windowing environments are lacking).

Regarding Aero, what I’ve seen of it is unfortunately a complete lack-luster. From what I’ve read and seen it will actually reduce my daily productivity compared to using Windows XP at work. I do not consider Microsoft’s move towards a 3D-backed windowing system beneficial for their client base and imagine they will have a real challenge convincing their customers to migrate (aside from those customers who get Vista installed on their newly purchase computers without asking for it).

Personally, I’d like to go with OS/X for my next computer upgrade and perhaps Compiz will result in a usable windowing environment by the time I need to upgrade again after that (in 36 months).

Unfortunately, it’s more likely my immediate upgrade will land me a desktop environment based on the standard Gnome/KDE variants since my company has terminated it’s corporate license with Microsoft by the end of this month (October) and our products are not supported on Apple as of yet.

wow, this is the thread that will not die. :D

Pilky said: Just to point out, Aqua is just the theme. Quartz, Quartz Extreme, the Core APIs (Image, Video and Animation) and OpenGL make up the graphics libraries in OS X. As for the capabilities of OS X’s graphics system:

http://arawareru.com/zugakousaku/qc_samples/

That’s completely done in Quartz Composer. Rotating cubes have been around since Panther (2003) and there’s nothing to have prevented someone allowing you to control the rotating of a cube yourself. The wobbly windows thing has been available in concept since 2000 when Apple demoed the genie effect.

XGL looks nice, but I haven’t seen anything there that truly impresses me enough. It’s much like with Vista a lot of the stuff does look impressive to Windows users but when you’ve lived with similar stuff for years it looks a little tame in comparison

EDIT: There’s also this page showing the window warping abilities of quartz – http://blog.medallia.com/2006/05/windowwarp.html

Very pretty stuff. Not sure how the fishies, dragon, jumping letters can aid productivity, but I like the potential.
Thanks for sharing this. It shows that both Apple and Open Source are light years ahead of Microsoft.

jdm20t said: Sorry guys….. I really want to get this working…. it looks awesome…

Any links to where I can get the XGL and Compiz environments would be great.

I’m thinking of trying it with Ubuntu and Gnome, this should work right???

Go to the ubuntu forums, and get the latest and greatest implementation of this technology – a fork of Compiz called Beryl.
It has a nice GUI control panel interface.
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=268036

Ok, registered here ONLY to reply to this spicy thread :D
Well, this was almost gone to a flame war. I don’t understand why people get so overzealous when somebody uses a different OS. Greets to all the apple and win users out there. I used to be a part of the latter… Now, it’s linux all-the-way. And I’m gonna tell you some of my thoughts about the whole OS scene. Let’s start with the obvious – the linux zealot monark. Way to go… Like somebody said, the flameguy pointed out many true and serious facts that were, unfortunately, ignored because of his arrogant behaviour. Anyway…
Let’s start with something simple. What means linux to you? GNOME? KDE? Hard times using the console? I don’t know, but to me it means stability and control. Now, I’m not dealing the usual bragging about the rock-solid-stable-blah blah sh*t. I’m talking about usability. I like linux because I can run my apache/php/mysql server while playing Enemy Territory. I like it because I can immediately shut down everything in 2 seconds using the sysv scripts and just run BOINC to help discovering a cure to HIV. I like it because when I install system-level updates I don’t have to restart my system. I like it because I like seeing what things are made of and how they work, and if I can – messing with them. Btw, doesn’t anyone here remember that in win98 you had to restart in order to change your ip? :eek: Anyway, this thread has gone way beyond graphic server discussions, and I’m contributing to this as well, for what I’m sorry, but I need to tell somepeople some things.
I’ll start with Kaseiffert. Congrats, man! You can really be an article writer, you could achieve serious things :) I mean, well, you obviously are a MAC lover, nothing wrong with that. But you have that twist in explaining things and turning out your choice to be the right one. No, I don’t mean no offence, but you have the skills of a writer. Remember that movie where DeNiro has that line: “You’re good! You’re very good! You’re even better than good…” Anyway, got distracted again. Just tryin’ to make it interesting to people reading. All that tech talk seems to scare some of them. Now, tell me, have you seen any importart server, and I mean big ones, run a mac OS? Well, I haven’t. And this must tell us something – and that’s exactly where apple has focused their job: at the end-user. Yeah, me, you and all of these people right here. Mac OS is excelling in an everyday use with less or no needed systemlevel tinkering. And that’s where its power comes from. You see, the problem with linux and windows is that they tend to cover both industrial and home use. And while linux has more passive developers, namely you and me while filing bug reports, windows has a very good technical staff. If you run a windows server, you can get everything configured perfectly for the right amount of $$$. On the other hand, if you run linux, then you know it needs special attention, but when you manage to deal with it, you get the power in your VERY OWN HANDS. You don’t need to dial 1-800-windowssupport and call in a technician, you can do that yourself. Just like sex, it can be a pleasure or pain, depending on your experience with it :D
Now let’s head to the graphics room, where we have three beautiful examples. Aero, Aqua and XGL. In some of your posts, yes I’m still talking to you :) , you say that you like better aqua for productivity. Nothing wrong with that, it’s your opinion, but let me convince you otherwise ;) After all, it’s just a graphic interface. I won’t choose XGL because I think it’s cooler than aqua, but because I use linux. And that’s the problem. People aren’t unbiased to vote fairly, and the same poll is different in win forums and mac forums. Nobody is going to switch from mac to linux because of its eye-candy and vice-versa, including windows. People wouldn’t change a pickup jeep for a drag racer because the other one has an illuminated steering wheel. But they would say that the latter looks better. So why are you biasing the poll towards productivity and usability? Why don’t you just state that “For now, XGL is better.”? Feeling a little ache in you mac heart? Again, no offence, but you’re the reason of the fatal dispute. You see, monark actually replied to you. Alexander Grundner is just playing professionally cool with you. I’m just laying down the facts. So basically, when you need a workstation for productivity, you need a mac. That’s your thesis and I admit – that’s the truth. When you need extreme tinkering at system level, you need linux. When you want case modding, you need a case (!!!). When you need gaming, you need windows. And as of programinng – for the (commercial) masses – win. Powerful server software – linux or win. And that’s it. For now, XGL has the best eye candy. Vista’s just plain simple compared to the other two. Ooooh, the all-new-incredible 30% Flip TaskSwitch. How useful! I’m gonna use it… never. And that sidebar just sucks. The window animations are the only good side from what I saw in the movie. And remember that open source software is in development all the time. People will need to purchase Mac OS XI or VistaII, when I’ll need only to download XGL source from the cvs. Again, it won’t be easy to set up, but it’s free and open source. Most of all, it’s linux.

Now I’m sorry if I offended anyone, failed to post by the rules, be the reason for an upcoming flame war or something else. But these are the facts. I’m not a native english speaker, so pardon me for any mistakes. Great forum, keep up the good work. And as far as it goes, I think that linux and apple people should be friendly to each other – after all, we’re both using Unix as a base, and whoever says “linux is better because you’re a mac wimp” ot “mac is better because you’re a linux geek” should reconsider polluting the webspace with his jabber. The end :p

Great post! Enjoyed reading the whole thing, Kitikri. I thought it was pretty fair and a great way to steer the argument one way or another.

BTW, I’ve seen this story posted on various Apple, Windows, and Linux sites/forums. Overall, I think the poll is pretty reflective of what people are thinking out there.

Hi i am web designer from Bulgaria.
After trying Vista RC1 and checking pricelist i decide to give a look to
open suse with XGL.
Thanks to XGL i switch my entire office to linux
(5 web developers and 3 designers).
Windoze is dead for me, ( if i need win programs i use emulation).
The xgl cube is very usefull tning.
We use apple a lot, but for specific tasks (mainly audio and Flash).
Linux works well with Maya and Shake also:))
Linux is future. Wait and you wil see.

very good but who can download Demo